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Post by Kierons on Jul 9, 2010 18:00:51 GMT
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Post by wstevens on Jul 11, 2010 11:51:46 GMT
Hearing a lot of disgruntled noise about the gimmicky engineer thingy, templates and dice. A lot of people think they are very cheap looking and not really what was pictured on the GW website. Apparently the templates look very plasticy and not brassy as depicted.
Also the templates themselves have surfaced a question about what do you measure for hits as the circular frame itself is quite wide. Most are advocating that it should be only the interior of the circular frames and not the frame itself. This will bring a lot of cantakerous arguments on the table top especially with partial hits counting as hits now.
Like the idea of measuring before charging, this really stops the "I cheated and you didn't notice" when someone goes to measure a shooting or magic range but strafes their eyes left or right to work out the distance for charges next round. Now everybody can "cheat" and we are all in the same boat!
VC have taken a bit of a hammering with a few rules nerfed. Banshee can no longer scream into a combat that she is not part of. Vamp with the helm that is not in base to base but his unit is in combat can not use the helm unless you resolve his unit's combat first and they cause the opponent to break. Carstein ring can be used against the infernal puppet and gateway spells. Cannot use ward saves or regen for crumble... I think! Dire wolves are now war beasts so I'm unsure if this means that they have lost their fast cav ability. Magic surely has been nerfed out so expect loads of fighty vamps and probably more wight lords! Necromancers are going to be pretty pants and only worth the cheap shot for a +1 on dice rolls for magic. Unstable? What's that?
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Post by Kierons on Jul 11, 2010 14:15:03 GMT
Overall, I think the changes are for the best.. magic was far too dominant in the last two editions.
There's going to be a lot of 'is that right?' for the next few months as different situations crop up during battles.
As for templates, Im just going to use the ones i've had for years...
Kieron
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darkangel1(Darrell)
Gates of Antares
Master of the Ravenwing
The Dark Angels the First Legion the true Angels of Death
Posts: 1,060
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Post by darkangel1(Darrell) on Jul 11, 2010 15:45:21 GMT
the demons havnt been too badly apart from it being impossible for them to have a lvl4 wizard unless you have 35+ pink horrors in a unit which affects your army chice somewhat. selecting your lord and heros now is critical and will require me to have a real good look before i chose which ones one plus the blue scribes now can be devastating at 81pts
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Post by carl on Jul 11, 2010 16:29:48 GMT
dire wolves not fast cav anymore and you can only have one of each spell in the entire army until all spells from that law have been rolled for, then you just start again and can have second of a particular spell. also if you roll a double when rolling for spells you can now choose what other spell you want rather than pick up the dice and roll again.
also, if you fail to cast a spell by rolling a natural 1 or 2 the entire magic phase ends.
2 dice per magic phase and the highest of the 2 is the amount of dispel dice your opponent gets in his pool.
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Post by wstevens on Jul 11, 2010 23:58:24 GMT
Corpse cart gets thunderstomp! What about invocation of Nehek - your saying that only one vamp can have this ability now? If that's so I think Ebay will see a whole new Vamp auction from me. This would also make Mannfred pretty rubbish as well as he is suppposed to know all the spells.
Also nerfed are the spirit hosts - they are now counted as skirmishing swarms. This was so we couldn't rank them up and get all those juicy attacks from second rows etc. Total crap. One guy says - oh but they will be -1 to hit for shooting. Erm? If you haven't any magical missiles that really doesn't help them at all.
Zombie dragon is totally useless now, even gnoblars can hurt it. Although the thunderstomp from it may come in handy.
Fell bats are beasts now so no D6 to invocate as not classed as infantry. Also they cannot march move their 20 inch fly move if they are not within 12 inch of a general (6 inches for other vamps), they will have to go 10 inches instead.
No outnumber by fear causing enemy and autobreaking save the insane courage roll. Hordes get steadfast rule - nice!
Blood knights have been also nerfed with the initiative 4 only. So on the charge anything higher (or high elves) will get to hit first. This I can't understand. How does a vampire thrall have a lower initiative than Chaos knights and is the same as a marauder. The nightmares no longer get the frenzy either so I'm told.
The only good thing I can see is the black coach which will absorb all the pool dice if you roll sixes for each! This new system is geared to having huge blocks of skellies and zombies. Ghouls now will be at a slight disadvantage without a banner. However the likelihood of getting many attacks back because of the extremely rubbish initiative is going to hurt a lot - unless you have a fair few corpse carts with miasma. Without the proper magic to sustain the horde casualties this will be quite horrible.
I've not even gone into the magic and spells etc which is integral to VC armies. This is very bad indeed. I may seem pessimistic but reading through what I have seen so far I can't see VC being an effective force as it was in 7th or 6th ed. Orcs and Goblins as well as Empire seem to be more favoured for outings at the Phoenix from now.
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Post by carl on Jul 12, 2010 16:23:40 GMT
ALL magic users can take the 1st spell from each law if they wish you just cant have 2 van hells until ALL the other spells have been taken and you start to go around again, or you have a character who knows all the spells from the start and then others simply roll as normal and get what they roll.
vamps have taken a HUGE pasting magic wise especially now you cant always roll just one dice to raise and if you fail simply carry on with another one dice as the phase ends totally on any naturak 1 or 2 roll.
total cack!!!!!
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Jon Nicholls
Gates of Antares
Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory...
Posts: 403
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Post by Jon Nicholls on Jul 12, 2010 18:16:09 GMT
No offence guys, but I am finding it difficult to muster much sympathy! Magic heavy armies, like VC in particular, dominated far too easily in the last edition. Your units still don't break from combat, you can still bring them back & create new ones. The horde rule is pretty handy for cheap rankable units (10+ wide and you get another ranks worth of attacks, HE can't take out that many skellies in one round!) You should try being Wood Elves! Skirmishers only get 90 arc not 360 now. WE own spell list was always pretty crap. There's not many rankable units in the whole list. I don't have a problem with the rules changes per se, having to take a fresh look at what your army does and how it does it isn't necessarily a bad thing. Give it a few years and it'll all change back again probably My biggest gripe with the whole thing is the price...
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Post by Kierons on Jul 12, 2010 19:22:24 GMT
I agree about the price...
Whilst the book is a MASSIVE tomb of loveliness, the rules only make up half of it, the rest is 'fluff', most of which belongs in the various Army books.
Still, I brought one from Osbournes, and cant stop myself from reading it over and over...
Kieron
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Post by wstevens on Jul 12, 2010 19:39:12 GMT
Yep totally agree with the guys over at Beasts of War - strangely called Darrell and Warren - but we won't go into that.... and now with Kieron - half is just fluff that old timers know like the back of hand (for his own army) - so I really can't see the point of the extra fluff. Great for new people I suppose but really worth the extra pennies for soemthing I already have in the army book? - Methinks not! I'll wait for the box set to come out and grab the small book. A point that Beasts of War put over... why not sell just both books seperately, one for fluffy and new people - the other for wargaming people? When the box set does come out I suppose I'll be doing swapsies with someone. Not sure which way to go - Skaven or High elves. This is an hour and 20 mins but worth the look - grab a coffee www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FYGTF7S7ng
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Post by shamutanti on Jul 12, 2010 22:30:19 GMT
Corpse cart gets stomp! What about invocation of Nehek - your saying that only one vamp can have this ability now? If that's so I think Ebay will see a whole new Vamp auction from me. This would also make Mannfred pretty rubbish as well as he is suppposed to know all the spells. Also nerfed are the spirit hosts - they are now counted as skirmishing swarms. This was so we couldn't rank them up and get all those juicy attacks from second rows etc. Total crap. One guy says - oh but they will be -1 to hit for shooting. Erm? If you haven't any magical missiles that really doesn't help them at all. Zombie dragon is totally useless now, even gnoblars can hurt it. Although the stomp from it may come in handy. Fell bats are beasts now so no D6 to invocate as not classed as infantry. Also they cannot march move their 20 inch fly move if they are not within 12 inch of a general (6 inches for other vamps), they will have to go 10 inches instead. No outnumber by fear causing enemy and autobreaking save the insane courage roll. Blood knights have been also nerfed with the initiative 4 only. So on the charge anything higher (or high elves) will get to hit first. This I can't understand. How does a vampire thrall have a lower initiative than Chaos knights and is the same as a marauder. The nightmares no longer get the frenzy either so I'm told. The only good thing I can see is the black coach which will absorb all the pool dice if you roll sixes for each! This new system is geared to having huge blocks of skellies and zombies. Ghouls now will be at a slight disadvantage without a banner. However the likelihood of getting many attacks back because of the extremely rubbish initiative is going to hurt a lot - unless you have a fair few corpse carts with miasma. Without the proper magic to sustain the horde casualties this will be quite horrible. I've not even gone into the magic and spells etc which is integral to VC armies. This is very bad indeed. I may seem pessimistic but reading through what I have seen so far I can't see VC being an effective force as it was in 7th or 6th ed. Orcs and Goblins as well as Empire seem to be more favoured for outings at the Phoenix from now. You big whining girl. Stop reading what others have said in various forums. Most of the things posted are wrong or don't tell the full story (as in the complete rules or place it in context of other things). Try it out. Seriously. I've turned so many crying wimps like you into fans by getting them to play it Even the most die hard of Fantasy players up here in Chesterfield/Sheffield area have been turned. So many of the things in this thread has cross over 7th/8th rules it's silly
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Post by wstevens on Jul 13, 2010 17:19:43 GMT
No most come from the FAQ which erm yes is available on the GW site. Some people have said this and that personally not on forums but most are correct. I don't just sit there and say yes you must be all correct. I have played a game already (found it ok but even Julie beat me with her dark elves) and to say that there is a 7th and 8th cross over here is quite wrong. What you see is one army - mainly mine and Carl's VC being dissected by me. Now I will ask you to go through what I have put down and tell me that I'm wrong everywhere with VC. I'm interested to see your view point about how VC has not been dumbed down. The only saving grace is the Black coach which is now awesome!
True that everybody would be in the same boat but TK have been given a much needed injection in the way 8th is being played. I love the champion's rule of moving through. Nice if you have an ogre or black orc champ and getting 50 extra Vps if you win a challenge.
Its not a case of being turned - nobody can be "turned". These are the new rules and everyone that wishes to go to a tournament must play by these rules or give it up and play 7th ed in private. My first game was quite rubbish. Blood knights completed destroyed when they charged before getting in any attacks as Dark elf black guard initiative was too high (and she rolled really well). Normally they would have rolled them with all their attacks but initiative goes first now.
If you want to put your money where your insulting mouth is why not come down to the club and face my VC army with 8th ed and we will see that my whining girl status is justified. VC are crap now end of! Now just remind me to get that dress on after you win with your army of gnoblars!
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Post by Stephen Mawson on Jul 13, 2010 19:10:13 GMT
I don't think VC are that bad under the new rules. They're probably not as good as they were prior to the rules change. But since they were a top 3 nasty army, that may be a good thing from a non VC players point of view.
Yes some stuff has got a lot worse, but then they're not the only army that that's happened to. Most heavy cavalry is now much less good compared to a big block of infantry. The Blood Knights are simply not going to be able to steamroller some units they way they used to do (mainly the Special Choice Elf Infantry frankly, as they've all got better initiatives, so will go first). My all cav warriors of chaos army is now frankly rubbish, as I can't take ranks off with a flank charge any more.
The main change I think is simply that VC's are likely to switch back to being best off with primarily infantry, supported by the other stuff. A big block of Skeletons, or grave guard with a Necro on a Corpsecart ought to work reasonably well. The Cart bulks out the skels, meaning you can have a horde needing less skels overall. Plus the extra thunderstomp attacks give the unit a little extra punch. Plus they don't even cost that much only 130pts. In a 2,000 point army you could take a couple, plus a wight king BSB, plus a vamp lord, and still have more than 1,200 points left for units.
I'm not sure whether VC magic has actually got better or worse. Ok Spam raising is probably gone now, due to the risk of failing a roll and then not being able to cast again that phase. But the more powerful spells especially Summon Undead Horde, and Winds of Undeath are now really, really easy to cast. Based on the couple of games I played over the weekend, and what I saw of several others, magic is now actually much harder to stop efficiently. It's very easy to get casting rolls of 15-20 (level 4 wizard plus results of 4 or more dice). That's difficult to stop without a scroll. Plus you have the issue that if you fail to dispel with a wizard they can't dispel again in that phase, so you can find you bonus to dispel quickly vanishes if you're not careful.
I'm currently scratching my head over my dwarf army, trying to work out what the best option now is for that. The infantry is expensive and unless fielded in really big units now not that great. Yes I can pack my army with a stupid amount of war machines, but that' unlikely to win me many games. Lots of cheap characters might be the answer, giving the units more killing power, but am not sure yet.
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Post by wstevens on Jul 13, 2010 21:09:29 GMT
More or less agree with you Stephen on most points. As I said previously this is geared to how VC should be played with big blocks of horde skellies and zombies. Although getting them to invocate will be harder, or should I say there won't be as many occassions to do it.
Thunderstomp will be good on the corpse cart - although no mention about the Varghulf having thunderstomp or just stomp in the FAQ but from the book I take it that it does.
The Black coach was awesome in my game but then when it finally powered up it was a real nuisance and took a lot of power dice off me and off Julie (ha ha). This did limit my magic again - one round I had rolled a 2 and a 1 and it took all dice on three sixes so no magic phase for me. Still enjoyed the +2 ward save against all of her magic spells - awesome.
My core choice of skellies just got skittled by her horde of frenzied unit of 30+ corsairs. No chance but the coach took care of the Black guard by smashing into the side of them after they decimated my blood knights with no reply (rest went on crumble). Like you say and I said earlier ALL armies are in the same boat with Cavalrly especially. Another option with VC is taking forbidden law on a thrall - but I've not thought of which lore I would take and this wholly depends on the army that I would face. Against Tomb Kings I would go for the Fire Lore probably and against Orcs and Goblins I would probably opt for the Lore of Death.
Dwarfs I thought would work very well in this apart from the cost of them. The quarrellers would make a good horde shooty unit - still reasonably cheap, but disadvantaged with move or shoot (as are the thunderers but these are expensive). I could see two big units of holding dwarves protecting your war machines and a gyrocopter and rangers causing problems. With the excellent shooting of range weapons now not much will reach their lines and the two horde dwarf units would just mop up.
I do like the fact that dispel scrolls are indeed arcane items meaning that you can only take one. This would pay to three plus scroll caddies on the board.
Empire has caught my eye with a horde of spearmen or swordsmen, and those detachments. Boy are they going to upset horde opponents.
I'm just thinking now with the redirecting charges if "baiting" a unit is viable anymore with another unit ready to flank them.
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Post by carl on Jul 13, 2010 21:39:16 GMT
i also assume that dire wolves, bat swarms and corpse carts DO count towards the 25% minimum of core as in the last edition they didn't count towards minimum core unit choices.
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