james
Frostgrave
Posts: 1,221
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Post by james on Jul 25, 2011 7:04:42 GMT
Feeling a bit rusty...
1. What is an armies break point? 2. What counts as close order and open order. 3. Is open order different to skirmish order?
Cheers
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Post by Simon Robinson on Jul 25, 2011 8:59:48 GMT
Here goes (all from memory)
ARMY BREAK POINT The Army Break Point (ABP) is something they introduced in version 2. I can’t remember the page number, but it’s in the section about setting up scenarios / battles.
Each Formed Unit has a value of 2 (3 if it’s worth over 300points) and each Skirmish unit a value of 1 (2 if it has 15 or more models) – add these together.
So if an army has 3 phalanx of 24 models (one worth 300+ points), 1 unit light Cavalry (deployed as skirmish), 3 units skirmishers (each of 10 models) and 2 units of Light Infantry (15 models each one deployed formed the other as skirmish) then it is worth 3+2+2+1+1+1+1+2+2=15.
Every time the army loses a unit (destroyed or runs off table) deduct the unit’s points from the starting total (in the example if the phalanx worth 300+pts is routed off the table so 15-3 running total is now 12). In addition to units there are points deducted for General , ASB being killed / routed off table. When the running total is equal to or less than 25% or the starting total (rounded down) - in our example – 3, the entire army is broken.
OPEN ORDER v SKIRMISH
Units are either FORMED (e.g. 4 files by 3 ranks) or in SKIRMISH formation (a cloud of 12 models). A formed unit may be in either Open Order or Close order (see below). Note Light Infantry / Light Cavalry may start the game either Formed or as skirmishers – they may not change between the two formations during the game, except where certain other rules allow – e.g. Units in buildings are considered to assume temporary skirmish formation.
CLOSE ORDER / OPEN ORDER
All infantry is classed as CLOSE ORDER except • It’s rules specifically say it is open order (usually in the medieval supplements) • It is in skirmish formation • It Formed Light Infantry (i.e. light Infantry NOT in skirmish formation) All Cavalry is classed as OPEN ORDER except • It’s rules specifically say it is close order (usually in the medieval supplements) • It is barded • It is not in skirmish order
For other unit types (chariots, elephants you would need to see their specific rules as I can’t remember them off hand)
If I remember when I get home I’ll re-read this and check against the rule book – in case I have missed anything or anybody who has access to the book before me can correct any errors
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james
Frostgrave
Posts: 1,221
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Post by james on Jul 25, 2011 18:17:06 GMT
Thanks - that fits with what I thought re open and closed order. Dont remember having ever played the break point thing before!
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Post by Simon Robinson on Jul 25, 2011 21:08:41 GMT
it's just a means of stopping people from fighting to the last unit - when realistically armies don't.
I prefer it to the classic 6 or 7 turn game limit
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james
Frostgrave
Posts: 1,221
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Post by james on Jul 25, 2011 21:22:29 GMT
onds good to me.
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Post by wstevens on Jul 25, 2011 23:58:25 GMT
Still not a fan of the army break point especially when the general and the ASB points are deducted from the army break value when they are not included at the start. This is a full 2 points for the general and a point deduction for all characters. Let's say you have three large units of barbarian warbands at 3 points each. Plus a chieftan in each (that's 3 characters) plus the general and the ASB. The army break value is 9 points making a break point of 2. You kill all the characters which are worth 6 points, you would only have to kill one unit of barbarians (or even half a unit going on last year's ruling). Simply not fair on the barbies! So not all characters should be included - only the general and the ASB.
So for this reason I'm not a fan of it. Although I do see the merit of this as with no one to lead them the unwashed would most probably run for the hills.
Please note that Scythed chariots and artillery do not effect the Army break value or Army break point. A Phocian army could be laughing here with all that artillery!
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Post by Simon Robinson on Jul 26, 2011 8:31:36 GMT
Are you sure about the artillery exemption - as you know artillery counts as a formed unit for things like panic?
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Post by wstevens on Jul 26, 2011 8:56:55 GMT
Well its the case of are you sure, as it was yourself that sent me this last year and I quote:-
"Break point values in WAB 2.0
2 points for each formed unit or elephant +1 if more than 300 points
1 point for each skirmish unit +1 if more than 15 models
The total is the Army Break Value (ABV)
The Army Break Point (ABP) is 25% of the ABV - rounding all fractions UP ABV = 13 would give ABP of 4)
Notes
Light Infantry deploy as Formed or Skirmish at the start of the battle and so count points based on what they deploy as.
Characters, Artillery and SCYTHED chariots do not effect the calculation of your ABV and ABPOnce the army is reduced to it's break point it has lost the will to fight.
The points are lost as follows
Units destroyed or having fled or stampeded from the field count as their points (2 or 3 for regular / 1 or 2 for Skirmish)
General killed or fled the table - 2 points
ASB killed / fled the table - 1 point
Unit reduced to 1/2 numeric strength half the BPs round DOWN (1 for regular / 0 or 1 for skirmish)
Notes
ASB and General, although not used to calculate the ABV / ABP are used to reduce it
Although NOT stated explicitly I suspect that a 300 point regular unit reduced to less than 1/2 size would yield 1pt towards the army breaking, when it was destroyed the remaining 2 points would be awarded giving the total of 3 for the unit. Rather than reduced to less than half 1 point, run off the table 3 points for a total of 4"
Note the section highlighted in red.
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Post by Simon Robinson on Jul 26, 2011 9:26:49 GMT
excellent - since I'm at work I don't have access to the rules.
Thanks for posting that, I was going to make the usually dig about teachers having an easy life with all those holidays and short days (finishing at 16:00) etc but my heart just isn't in it at the moment ;D
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Post by wstevens on Jul 26, 2011 9:46:04 GMT
If you did you would really be treading on a massive minefield! Now where is that cocktail I ordered?
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Post by Simon Robinson on Jul 26, 2011 9:52:41 GMT
I'm just glad you could drag yourself away from the sauna to keep an eye on the forum
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james
Frostgrave
Posts: 1,221
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Post by james on Jul 26, 2011 11:21:30 GMT
Kaboom!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wife (teacher) at work! Me looking after kids... Hmmm maybe a trip to the cinema beckons enjoy work.
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james
Frostgrave
Posts: 1,221
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Post by james on Aug 3, 2011 7:06:43 GMT
Does light infantry count as formed or skirmish - my 8 marines can be either? If formed do they count as 2 break points?
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james
Frostgrave
Posts: 1,221
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Post by james on Aug 3, 2011 7:07:56 GMT
Equally well my cavalry is formed but only six models - how many break points is that?
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Post by Simon Robinson on Aug 3, 2011 11:53:17 GMT
Light Infantry (or Cavalry) may be deployed as Open Order (Formed) or as Skirmish order at the start of the scenario - their BP value depends on how they are deployed so can vary from scenario to scenario. Basically decide how you want them deployed and workout the BP as normal
e.g. 10 Peltasts deployed as Skirmishers - 1 pt, as Open Order (Formed) 2 points, assuming the Peltasts cost 299 or less
Assuming the cavalry is always formed and costs less than 300points - 2pts
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