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Post by Simon Robinson on Dec 10, 2011 21:53:11 GMT
Thanks for the answers, not what I was looking for really.
Figurescale is how many people 1 model represents e.g 1:20, 1:50 etc unless it's a skirmish game most wargames are not 1:1. If you have a 16 model unit of roman legionaires then if it is a centuary then you have a 1:5 figure scale, same number of models as a maniple it's now 1:30
This automatically means that the groundscale is also altered so 1" = 25' or 50'.
So anybody else seen anything (I know i have read it somewhere) giving a figurescale / groundscale for WAB2?
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Post by Simon Robinson on Dec 14, 2011 14:41:02 GMT
After doing a bit of checking on the web, some basic maths and thinking things trough I have come up with the following estimates - how do they seem to other people?
Based on the bow ranges in WAB, base-sizes and other things, I get a ground-scale of about 1" = 10m (yes I know I'm mixing metric and imperial but it works so tough)
With that ground-scale then the figure-scale is between 1:20 - 1:30.
All of this seems reasonable when you look at unit sizes too.
So unless anybody has a better set of figures it's what I'm going to use when converting known battles to a WAB format
Cheers
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Post by tiger1 (Paul) on Dec 14, 2011 19:09:42 GMT
efer to reply to HC question. If you refer to page 8 of Clash of Empires it agrees with your 10metres to 1" calc but suggests a ration of 10:1 men to models ?? I think the men to models issues is less sensitive, its more about unit balance and number of figures available in collection P
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Post by Simon Robinson on Dec 15, 2011 12:44:47 GMT
Yes figure ratio is less important, but having a rough idea is a useful starting point when converting historical battles.
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Post by Simon Robinson on Jun 27, 2012 17:25:44 GMT
A few things that came up in the game last night (26/06/2012)
When counter-charging the Chargers still strike 1st the counter-charging unit strikes 2nd – I got this wrong last night. Since Warren rolled so badly it made no difference but it could do.
Chargers / counter-Chargers do NOT meet in the middle – the Counter-Chargers move ½ their normal move distance allowing for terrain, the need to wheel etc. and then the chargers are moved onto them (obviously only do this once you’ve checked the Chargers are within charge range – without the counter-charge movement) – again my bad. This might have had an effect on the game as it might have meant that when the cavalry Gave Ground their flank was still exposed to the infantry.
Measure the distance for missile fire from each figure (even when using massed fire, combined formations et al) when an individual model position can change the range at which they shoot. – Not my error this one, but something that occasionally people get wrong.
Formed units can only declare a charge if they're 4 models or more wide (i.e. you have at least one rank) – since most people rarely have less than 4 models this doesn’t come up very often, but one to watch out for.
Cavalry with a 3+ save – iugnoring Barding lose 1” of movement, (so Heavy armour and shield has a 1” penalty). Not to be confused with the rule that Cavalry with metal barding automatically move 1” less. I’ll have to check to see if 3+ save with metal barding is cumulative for a penalty of 2”
Cheers
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Post by wstevens on Jun 27, 2012 17:34:32 GMT
I suppose countercharging is just so that you can get the extra bonuses such as +1 strength on the spear or +2 on the lance. How does this work for throwing spears do they get to reroll as normal as it now seems there was no point in counter charging at that point? Yes my infantry would have been in the flank if I had stayed put with my cav.
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Post by zedeyejoe on Jun 27, 2012 18:44:12 GMT
Counter-charging is a charge response and allows you to get the bonus associated with charging for the weapon only.
No benefit for weapons like throwing spears. Even a disadvantage for mixed weapons, because if you stand still, you get to shoot and then get the re-roll. Counter-charge instead and you do not get to shoot.
The not charging for units 3 models or less wide is really to stop Marching units from charging - stops the old Roman trick of March 3 wide, declare charge and then expand before you charge.
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Post by Simon Robinson on Jun 27, 2012 19:38:03 GMT
Except for who strikes first Counter Charging Cavalry count as charging for all purposes, so unless the tactical situation dictates otherwise it's almost always a good option:
pp39 - Counter Charging "Counterchargers count as charging for all purposes except for deciding which unit strikes first. ..... This is still very useful for the counterchargers. as it means they will recieve all appropriate bonuses in combat just as if they had charged."
pp92 - throwing spears "This re-roll does not apply if the cavalryman charges or countercharges through or into difficult terrain into combat that turn"
Mixed Weapons reroll misses on "the first round of combat" no mention of charge / countercharge / standing.
The 3 models wide rule was probably designed to stop various abuses like you mention (I've been the recipient and the perputrator of some of those abuses myself) so it's a welcome rule as far as I'm concerned
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Post by Simon Robinson on Jun 27, 2012 19:53:07 GMT
Warren: based on the situation in the game in question then you could have
a) moved into the 8" javelin range and chucked a few pointy sticks, the next turn we would have charged you and you could neither countercharge, stand and shoot or fire and flee due to the range.
b) stood your ground where you were and when charged countercharged - no bonus except the point of contact is closer to our Cavalry meaning if you broke you had more room to flee into without going off the board
c) stood your ground and when charged chucked Javelins hoping to cause a panic test
d) retreated a bit - you would not have got out of charge range so next turn you would had to either countercharge or chuck pointy sticks - but you would be doing this from nearer the board edge and possibly where our cavalry was no longer threatened in the flank.
In all cases when charged you could re-roll the misses from the throwing spears since there was no difficult terrain involved.
Was it a good idea to countercharge? If you thought you would definately not break or get wiped out in the combat then probably NOT, but since you did not know that (after all you had to take a test needing a 5 so the odds were against you) then having the room to flee into and rally if you survived any pursuit was probably a good thing .
Compare that with not having the room and throwing 6 javelins (which would on average have a 50% chance of killing 1 model) and not causing a panic test.
What do you think was the best option?
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Post by wstevens on Jun 27, 2012 20:06:56 GMT
Yeah I just blame my dice rolls for that! I still would have countercharged you anyway. If the dice were kinder then maybe things would have different, but we could all say that. As it happened they were kind in the end and passed my break test - however being only four models I should have autobroken. Is that rule still floating?
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Post by Simon Robinson on Jun 27, 2012 20:14:14 GMT
You are indeed correct - I thought it was less than 4 models, it IS less than 5 (4 or less),
So you would have auto broken - causing an immeadiate round of panic tests which because your general was near you would almost all passed. BUT most importantly we would have pursued your fleeing unit out of the charge arc of your infantry
Glad I found out I had got the wrong number in my head now rather than on Saturday ;D
Thanks
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Post by unclebuck (tony) on Jun 27, 2012 21:34:20 GMT
quick one simon,on monday my Turocman cav beat Hun cav they fled i ran them down. But then hit another unit on the over run and the way they were positioned it was in my flank when lined up.they were at a say 1 o'clock angel. so managed to hold after first combat but can i reform or expand ? The way i read it is no my unit is stuck their till they run or my one model beats his 3 ? Any clues
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Post by zedeyejoe on Jun 28, 2012 9:02:18 GMT
quick one simon,on monday my Turocman cav beat Hun cav they fled i ran them down. But then hit another unit on the over run and the way they were positioned it was in my flank when lined up. What overrun is that (p67)? The D6 you get after destroying a unit of skirmishers? Because normally you don't get any overrun for wiping out a unit of fleeing troops. And you don't have to overrrun (in any circumstances) if you don't want to.
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Post by Simon Robinson on Jun 28, 2012 12:55:42 GMT
WARNING LONG ANSWER DO NOT ATTEMPT WITHOUT A CUP OF TEA ;D
Without seeing what actually happened it’s a little hard to give an accurate answer, but from what you say there are two possibilities of how you got into the situation that I can see
Option 1 You pursued the Huns, who initially managed to out run you, and then charged and caught them on the next turn. Since the Huns were already fleeing you would automatically destroy them in the Combat phase. At this point all enemy units within 12” might have to take a Panic test (Friends destroyed in combat) and as this was a fresh charge you have the option of making an over run move, but as Zedeyejoe says you don’t have to.
If you do overrun you MUST move straight ahead, however since panic tests take place before Pursuit – you will already know if any enemy you are likely to contact is going to be broken before you decide if you wish to overrun.
Assuming you did decide to overrun and rolled a high enough distance to hit an unbroken enemy unit with your flank then see The Answer (below)
Option 2 The Turcoman Cavalry beat the Huns who fled and you rolled more than the distance they fled on your pursuit roll. You therefore ran them down and destroyed them as part of the pursuit move and continued the rest of the distance you rolled in a straight line and contacted a new enemy with your flank.
The Answer: Regardless of how you ended up hitting the enemy the answer is the same. Looking at the text on pp33 Moving into contact.
“Once the charger has touched the enemy, it has successfully charged. The charger is then aligned against the enemy as shown in the diagram below. This extra alignment move happens automatically and is free!”
Also of possible relevance – pp64
“there is no need for pursuers to maximise contact…, nor do they need to charge to charge to the front or the side as described in the section on Charges (see p32)”
“If pursuers contact their enemy at the corner of a side base, then align the pursuing unit to whichever face allows the most pursuers to make contact with enemy models. Where this is an equal number either way, pursuers must align to the front of the enemy out of preference and otherwise to the side”
Taking all this together: The chargers move to align NOT the charged, since a pursuit or overrun into an enemy is treated as a charge then the enemy unit is NOT moved only the contacting unit.
So you would not have to fight to your flank at all – instead you would wheel round and effectively charge the enemy unit on the front, or side – from what you describe I would guess the front. You would not at this stage be able to expand / contract your frontage. If you won this combat, without breaking your enemy, you would then have the option of expanding your frontage. If you had lost the combat, but not broken you would not have been able to expand frontage.
This also has the advantage of agreeing with common sense – nobody charges with their flank even accidently, and it keeps the combat advantage with victorious pursuers rather than giving it to a unit suddenly and unexpectedly caught up in a pursuit move.
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Post by unclebuck (tony) on Jun 28, 2012 19:11:38 GMT
ok so the option 2 is what happened and i should of then aligned to them,cheers simon. they did hold the other unit for 2 turns rolling double one each time cheers
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