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Post by carl on Oct 6, 2008 19:46:46 GMT
Guys; sorry to rake over old ground but we really need to consider the size of the club now (attendee wise) against how many tables we can actually get in the rooms without causing problems.
i understand we had 19 people last week and there are once again quite a few league matches this week which will take up tables, as well as the people who roleplay doing wargaming this week, this means that numbers should once again be high, and table space at a premium.
what with the excellent news that Darren is coming back to the club from this week as well as new members such as Alex, Andy and Gavin coming on a regular basis (both A & A are collecting flames of war armies and should hopefully soon be able to play regular games of this) and another potential new member contacting me within the last week saying they are coming down to see us this Weds, we really are outgrowing the rooms upstairs.
there are also two other potential members who have said they won't attend whilst the club meets upstairs due to the space issue.
there are more problems than just space / tables to consider though, such as;-
car parking spaces - there aren't enough now to go around let alone adding anymore to it as well as those of the scout people and the fact we can't park in the first two spaces anyway. the younger members dont see this issue as many of them are dropped off and their parents collect them later when the car park has thinned out of scout leaders cars etc, but members find it difficult sometimes to find car park spaces close to the club. also, with winter coming (and bad weather??) the need to park close by is more relevant.
noise - the tables being crammed in means it is very noisy around each game and is sometimes difficult to hear / concentrate.
no room to manouvre around your own table - same as the noise issue with the tables too close together.
i had problems with both the noise and no room to manouvre issues at the last club night and i'm sure i wasn't the only one.
David and Henry were practically playing in the doorway a few weeks back, which is also not good on a saftey issue if there was a fire alarm etc, but this was the only space left to put tables.
personally, as we did NOT get everyones vote last time i think we should reconsider the move to a Tuesday and poll everyone at the club, NOT via this site as not everyone has access to a computer or uses this site and EVERY member should get to vote, even if they are not there on a specific night. i think a list should be drawn up of every member and their vote asked for and recorded.
also, any SPECIAL conditions for the passing or non-passing of the vote should be agreed by the whole club BEFORE the vote is taken as the fact this happened last time was 'unjust' as it is not in the club rules that conditions such as these exist and should come into play should a vote be too close to call.
the chairmans casting vote according to club rules should only come into play if any vote is tied.
i am not trying to stir up trouble or anything like that, but i feel that as we have done so well to attract new people to the club it would be a shame to run the risk of losing them because we dont have enough space / tables to allow them to play a decent game on.
whilst personal issues on being available on certain nights are understandable when people are weighing up how to vote, everyone should consider what is best for PHOENIX GAMING CLUB to continue and grow in the way we have over the past few years.
surely, the fact that we would get the WHOLE building on a Tuesday for £30 must be something we should consider as we would NEVER have to move anywhere again. if we dont grab this night then another group / society may come along and get it and our chance could be gone forever.
please express your feelings on this matter as it is a very important issue.
cheers
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Post by Andy"windy"Miller on Oct 6, 2008 23:10:49 GMT
I'm easy, but you knew that! I can see the issues, Carl, a good point well made. Either night works for me, but I will miss the second Tuesday of every month as it's my car club meeting. I'm new, so don't know the history and I apologise if I'm stepping on anyones feet. It does seem a pretty good price for downstairs and the space is superb, it can get a bit "hot and sweaty" upstairs, no offence intended. Are any other evenings available? If the numbers are that good, two meets a week? I'll shut up now and go sit in the corner
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Post by Liam Thompson on Oct 7, 2008 0:13:23 GMT
Sadly, the last time this was proposed I was unable to attend the meeting in question, but it seems clear that there are several issues at play here.
To begin with, should such a massive change to the club's format be decided outside of the AGM? What is the club's charter for dealing with situations like this? Can the committee call an Extraordinary/Emergency/Special General Meeting for the purposes of discussing, and then voting on such an issue? It seems to me that this was one of the main issues that caused such animosity amongst members last time.
Secondly, if a change is to be proposed, then a decision needs to be made as to which day it is moved to - this decision ought to be made and/or voted on before the Meeting itself occurs (unless it would be better for the decision to also be voted on at the Meeting). As previously stated, and from what I can recall last time, certain peoples would not be able to attend were the club to change its meetings to certain days. Ergo, such a change would need to be discussed by the membership as a whole.
On that note, I feel it is important that everyone who currently holds a (2008) membership with the club be formally contacted by the committee and given opportunity to attend this Meeting (or make a vote by mail or proxy), so people cannot claim to be left out of the decision-making process. Whilst non-members are still important, the annual membership fee must count for something.
The Meeting date should be decided on well in advance, so as to give people the chance to attend if they can, and perhaps ought to NOT be during the club's normal weekly meet; I know that when I turn up on a Wednesday then all I am interested in doing is game, and I dislike it when time has to be taken out of that to perform other functions.
At the meeting, the floor should be thrown open to whomsoever wishes to speak, and as civilised people we should allow them to do so without fear of reprisal, heckling or interruption. Aggressive emotive language and threats (for example, assuring that you will never turn up to the club again should the meeting night move, or that people will 'regret' not voting with them) should not be allowed, and the committee will need to decide in advance, and publicise, what will happen to people who choose to do so.
Finally, the vote should be a secret ballot, done on pre-prepared slips of paper, and collected at the meeting itself, counted in full view of all attendees and rechecked by a number of random volunteers. The result should be stated on the night, published on the website, this forum, and the committee should endeavour to contact the membership of the club informing them of the final decision (whether it is to change or to remain as it is).
Those are all the ideas I've had on the matter so far, but people should feel free to discuss whether or not they are good ideas.
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Post by mike on Oct 7, 2008 7:54:40 GMT
Just like Windy, I'm pretty easy on the point. Apart from Monday night (when I'm at the Bedford club), any night is OK with me and and you can assume I will vote accordingly. Having said that, I do agree that the space issue upstairs is a problem and that therefore a change of meeting night is certainly worth talking about. threats (for example, assuring that you will never turn up to the club again should the meeting night move ... ) should not be allowed As I recall from the last meeting on this issue this threat was never made. True there were some people who, due to other commitments, could not attend on a Tuesday and therefore voted against the change, but there was nobody who would not attend. This a problem we are going to face whichever night we move to. I think, therefore, the first thing we should do is find out which other nights are available and which nights everybody can attend. Then we can pick a night that the maximum number of people can attend. (Windy hinted at this when he asked if any other nights were available.) If the numbers are that good, two meets a week? Nice idea Windy, and this has already been discussed at length. The risk with this is that most memebers turn up on both nights, which would be great for the club but doesn't actually solve the initial problem. Good to see that people are thinking "outside the box" though.
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Post by paulr on Oct 7, 2008 8:16:00 GMT
I agree with Carl, if member numbers are increasing and there is limited space, why shouldn't we at least have the option of voting for a move?
If 2 nights are available, then potentially make one a wargamming night and the other a roleplaying one, since it was the roleplayers who wanted the Wednesday night.
Since it takes me 40 minutes to drive to the club I would not be happy if I couldn't get a game due to space issues and would then seriously consider dropping out, so obviously my vote is for Tuesday.
As Liam said, this vote should be open to all, so if a member cannot attend on the night they get to vote beforehand.
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alexs
Champion
Posts: 126
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Post by alexs on Oct 7, 2008 12:18:17 GMT
I think the situation needs looked at. As a new member it struck me after the first meeting upstairs that there would be problems in the future once the new members such as myself and Andy got an army together to play with.
It would be a shame if all the recent good work that the club has done to promote itself (Kelmarsh, WI notices etc.) resulted in people not being able to play games or indeed as Carl suggested gamers not joining. It depends on the ambitions of the club, if the recent promotions of the club were aimed at increasing membership then inevitably more space will be required.
Taking Andy's suggestion about two nights forward a bit, and Mike's comment about all the members attending both nights, could they be allocated to say 1 night fantasy gaming and 1 night historical gaming. People could choose what they wanted to do or attend both if they wished. From what I can see there is not a whole lot of members who do both but maybe I've not been there long enough.
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Post by Andy"windy"Miller on Oct 7, 2008 15:42:50 GMT
I don't know what all the history is to this debate, but this does seem like a reasonably civil discussion! Yes we all do want the best for the club, but we all have the hidden agenda that we all want to play our own games. Any change is going to disadvantage someone, however hard we try not to. All we need to do is make sure is if there is change it affects the minimum number possible. I might be jumping the gun here, but the AGM does seem like the obvious time and would give plenty of time to publicise this and everyone a chance to air their views. As I said, which evening wil have little effect on me, so a compelling reasoned arguement is always welcome. Is it possible to put the AGM meeting as a suggestion to the committee? Now the tricky bit. If members are not at the meeting them I agree they should be able to vote on the issues, but that does mean knowing exactly what these issues are before the meeting. If someone forwards a great idea at the time, then those not present will be left out. Some serious research needs to be done on what the options are, who can play when and peoples opinions on change. Only then can we put forward some formal possibilities. Sorry if this sounds a bit preachy, it wasn't intended to be.
Personally I'm all in favour of the Status Quo, I've got all their albums ;D
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Post by Stephen Mawson on Oct 7, 2008 16:06:50 GMT
I really can’t see any division of the club into separate sections working very well. I don’t think we have enough people who regularly play any specific genre of game to support a club night on their own, and there are enough people at the club that play multiple games which would mean them needing to attend twice a week in order to allow them to play the same variety of games and people as they do at present.
On a personal front attending two separate meetings for Phoenix a week is just something I would not be prepared to do. I already attend Bedford on a Monday and Phoenix on a Wednesday, a further gaming night a week would just be to much.
This is to say nothing about the fact that splitting the club into sections, especially sections where there is minimal interaction between the groups, seems likely to me to result in two separate and much smaller clubs if carried on long term.
Having the club focus on different types of gaming on alternative weeks is not much better a solution, as that is either going to put off those who don’t want to play that type of game from attending on that week, thus reducing average attendance, and long term possibly membership.
I’m perfectly willing to have another look at the feasibilities of changing nights. The last time we enquired I believe the room downstairs was only available on a Tuesday night. I will find out tonight whether that situation has changed, as an alternative night might be more acceptable to those who voted against the last time we looked at this.
I will also bring in a short survey for members to fill in, so that the committee can see how many people can attend when, and what amount are broadly in favour of changing nights. That should let us determine whether a change of nights is broadly practical or not.
I do appreciate that fact that most people are not keen on club decision making eating into their gaming time any more than is strictly necessary. Generally speaking this sort of thing is exactly what the AGM at the end of December is for. However as at present we are only booked up to the end of December we’re going to need to give the Scouts some notice that we wish to change the night that we have booked the hall, before we get into the new year. Since the AGM is the last week in December that means we’d be giving them almost no notice if we wanted the new arrangement, if any, to start in January.
I guess therefore we probably would want to be aiming at making a decision by the end of October, or the beginning of November. With this in mind I’ll try and find out on Wednesday whether people would rather set aside a portion of a regular meeting to get this worked out, or have a separate meeting purely to make the decision. Personally I’d rather get things out of the way at a regular meeting, partly as it is likely to ensure a reasonable attendance of members, and partly as if we want to hold a separate meeting at another time in the Scout Hall we’d have to book one of the rooms, for an hour I guess at additional expense to the club.
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Post by carl on Oct 7, 2008 16:20:27 GMT
personally i like Liams idea of a secret ballot and let everyone vote but the vote to be finished by a certain date. as Steve says we need to let the Scout people know asap about next year, although i think a this point we ARE booked for EVERY wednesday of 2009 but if we want to change then we need to sort it out urgently to give them fair enough warning. we clearly are outgrowing the rooms upstairs and need to do something even if from a safety point of view. perhaps we could start taking votes this / next week latest and go for a decision by end of October as per steves suggestion. as we are moving one night to a thursday shortly perhaps thursdays are available long term, but i think steve may once again be right in that Tuesday is the only other option. good discussions / points guys.
the car parking, noise and table space issues is going to quickly become a major problem if we dont sort something out soon
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darkangel1(Darrell)
Gates of Antares
Master of the Ravenwing
The Dark Angels the First Legion the true Angels of Death
Posts: 1,060
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Post by darkangel1(Darrell) on Oct 7, 2008 16:58:00 GMT
well put carl & liam however steve has some very good points. we (the committee should address the issue again but this time we need to be much more careful about what we do say and be mindful about the questions that need asking therefore there are a number of issues that need resolving not just wether or not we should move to another night but as far as i can see the following need to be decided on before a final decision is made. 1; is a move in the best interest of the majority of club members? 2;will a particular group who attend the club suffer if we do move to another night ? 3;if the club met on 2 seperate nights would it benafit the club and is it financialy viable? 4:is everyone aware that a commitee key holder would have to attend a new night and be resposable for opening up and locking up wether or not they personaly were able or not willing to attend? i agree a questionaire should be drawn up with very presice questions to find out how the membership feels so the committee can have a clear idear on how the club feels first let us (the committee) know how you feel about the issue
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Post by carl on Oct 7, 2008 17:05:23 GMT
in light of the fact that we have more new members coming along regularly than we had when we took the last 'vote' the club certainly would benefit in moving to a tuesday if it were just on a space issue alone. however, i know as does everyone else this is not the only issue but it is probably the most important. if a questionaire is to be drawn up (i assume by Steve) then this needs to be given out / put on the forum by next weds latest. however, we do need to contact via email everyone who does not use this forum and perhaps the questionaire could even be emailed around to members rather than printing them all off as this will save printing costs for steve etc. and get a better / quicker response (maybe).
i know that there were a few guys who said tuesdays were an issue but we must look at the benefits for the MAJORITY of club members rather than dismiss a move because of the minority.
i'm not saying that they dont matter, but you can't turn down a move when more people vote for it than not.
ALL previous club votes have been passed or rejected by the larger of the two 'show of hands' so we should stick to this until the club votes for a change to club rules, as those rules are there to sort out issues such as this.
the questionaire should include issues re parking, noise and space around tables as well as amount of tables available. i still have 2 fold up tables that could be left at the club for club use only as they can be stored on top of the terrain cabinet.
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Post by wstevens on Oct 7, 2008 18:07:07 GMT
If a ballot were to be done then this would have to be anonymously with tick boxes only. One box for Tuesday only, one box for Wednesday only and another box for both nights. However, I would urge protagonists (canvassers if you will) to actually put down the benefits of each night and the pitfalls so that people can have a purpose for their choice without it being just a random one. I don't mind it being on a Tuesday - however it would be a massive rush for me as I have my club on a Tuesday at the school. As that doesn't finish until 6.00pm - I don't fancy packing all my stuff and rushing straight there without tea and wash and brush down etc... If it was a Tuesday you'd expect me to be quite late in attendance. If I moved the school club date to a Monday then we would clash with all the sports clubs etc and we would not have people showing up. Anyhow I do agree that the place is getting too small for the number we have and to be honest it does pose a H&S risk. If we have people barking at the ballot results with idle threats of non-committance to the club then let them follow it through. Its a democratic vote and so is your decision not to show up if it doesn't swing the way you want to. Although I can't imagine why this would be - in the end people are only human and as humans we seldom like change to the norm. What ever happened to the Saturday morning option? We used to have that at the Pembroke centre - that worked ok and was extremely popular with the younger members. If this was thrown in aswell it could even bolster attendances as we did lose a lot of members when this was knocked on the head. If we can check for viability for Saturday mornings - I feel this would be a great option for parents who wish to go out and do their shopping!!!!!!!! To be honest a number of them did confess this before - £3 to have their children for 2 and half hours is a bargain in the kidsitting world! Not only that they get to play and learn new tactics! Downside to this is 1) Constant availability? 2) Having a commitee member present who has also a valid CRB form. 3) The notion that on some weekends when we are attending major functions that the Saturday option would not occur (to which you would have to inform the Scouts of this in advance). Examples are Doubles weekend and Kelmarsh. anyway something to mull over
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Post by carl on Oct 7, 2008 18:18:38 GMT
good points Warren; maybe we can look at saturday mornings but remember we must have 2 committee people every week which was part of the trouble last time. also, the last i heard the kids who lost out when saturdays folded started their own club up at Hensman Hall in Higham, but i dont know if that is still going.
perhaps we could do every other saturday morning to start with for say a couple of months as a trial run. i cant say that i could attend but it is an option to be considered and could even do some roleplaying groups as well as wargaming perhaps. i agree about the weeks that events clash and the club would not be run on those saturdays.
another option is the sunday one, which again could be once every two months to start with and if enough interested was generated then go to once a month.
what about asking your club members if they would like to come along to our place if we move to tuesdays? thereby we gain more members, and they get to play against different people.
as we would have no-one else to worry about on Tuesdays, perhaps we could start at 6.30 rather than 7 which would mean the younger members get an extra bit of time before they are picked up by parents etc.
also, i cant see a problem if you are not there till say 7.30 as this seems to work well for James etc who has a similar problem and games are still completed.
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Post by wstevens on Oct 7, 2008 18:37:06 GMT
also, i cant see a problem if you are not there till say 7.30 as this seems to work well for James etc who has a similar problem and games are still completed. Your talking about me here! ;D
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Post by wstevens on Oct 7, 2008 18:38:23 GMT
I know that a saturday morning would suit a few of the boys at The Ferrers school.
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