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Post by Liam Thompson on Aug 29, 2008 17:58:51 GMT
Hey Warren, I've got a few questions regarding army composition, and I felt that it might be a good idea to ask on the forum rather than via PM.
Can Giants be used, according to the White Dwarf rules? In other words, do Empire, Dark Elves, Vampire Counts, Tomb Kings, Skaven and Dogs of War armies have access to Giants as Rare choices?
Can Dogs of War armies use the Ogre Kingdoms units specified as being allowed to be used as Dogs of War in the Ogre Kingdoms army book? I.e. Can Dogs of War armies take units of Ogre Bulls, Ogre Ironguts, Ogre Leadbelchers and Ogre Maneaters as Special choices?
Can other armies include Dogs of War units? Does this also include the above mentioned Ogre Kingdoms units? If the answer is yes, do bear in mind that GW has been phasing out the terminology that DoW can be used in their more recent army books, but that this does not mean that these armies cannot take DoW, simply that the rules are self contained in the DoW .pdf file, instead (therefore, saying that "an army can take DoW only if stated in their army book" is not a valid answer).
Sorry for the multitude of questions, but they will help me with my army composition, for obvious reasons.
Cheers!
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Post by wstevens on Aug 29, 2008 19:25:28 GMT
That's simple - for this Trophy only (my rules) Giants maybe taken in the following armies only Chaos mortals, Chaos beasts, Orcs and goblins only as they are - no matter what the other books say. In addition via the GW site uk.games-workshop.com/dogsofwar/giant-rules/1/ Vampire Counts, Skaven, dark Elves, Empire, Tomb Kings, DoW may take as a rare choice. This GW page was modified on 28/08/08 so it is legal. The ogre choice that is clearly marked in the ogre book for DoW is also valid - so yes you can take maneaters etc... for DoW only although taking up four special choices with all ogres will raise a few eyebrows in a DoW army - (not that its illegal - my rules only) However, if they are DoW choices then any army that has a DoW choice in their army that is current may take them. However, exceptions to this is the giant as outlined above. Books that have phased out DoW units as a rare choice except aforementioned cannot use them. This will stop too much arguing etc. So to summarise 1. Normal Giants per se - in O&G, Chaos mortals, Chaos Beasts. 2 DoW Giants as described here uk.games-workshop.com/dogsofwar/giant-rules/1/ ONLY! 3. Ogre DoW listed Units for DoW (special choice) and all that have CURRENTLY DoW as a rare choice. 4. Reinterate no 3 DoW as rare choices for armies with this listing no matter what the DoW pDF says (I mean we are currently ignoring the chaos mortals PDF to appease people - let's not stretch it). 5. Just to add - no named DoW units such as Alcatani regiment or Leopold's or Manflayers etc... This is final.
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Post by Liam Thompson on Aug 29, 2008 21:21:33 GMT
Books that have phased out DoW units as a rare choice except aforementioned cannot use them. This will stop too much arguing etc. {snip} This is final. Not arguing, just pointing something out. Games Workshop have stated, though sadly not published in an article that I can wave at you, that as army books are republished, they are no longer having Dogs of War added to their Rare section simply because the rules are contained in the Dogs of War article, not because they intend for certain armies to be denied access to Dogs of War. With that in mind, are you still limiting Dogs of War allies to those armies that explicitly state that they may take Dogs of War (oddly enough favouring those armies with older army books) or are you allowing all armies to take Dogs of War allies, as Games Workshop intended? Obviously, the Giant rules are not part of this as only particular armies may take a Giant, as detailed in its own rules.
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Post by wstevens on Aug 30, 2008 10:51:47 GMT
Maybe I should have said "potential future disagreements between players" as I was not referring to you voicing your opinion here - my apologies for saying "arguing" as it does look that way.
As stated we have already ignored the chaos mortals PDF list and I don't want to add more stipulations etc. If I may guess - we could have people really bending the rules and putting out unfair lists with this. Imagine Chaos Daemons - with giants, ogres as a special choices and any other rare DoW they could fit in. They are too powerful as it is. As for favouring older books - to be honest the kerfuffle over new army lists surely doesn't show that they are underpowered against older books. I feel that the addition of DoW would make them even harder and if you wish - its sort of a nice balance if older ones have DoW. So I will stick to what I have said and reply with a no. If it doesn't say it in the army book then I cannot allow it.
However DoW giants are a different matter (see above). I believe that the Ogre Kingdoms references to DoW has been taken as red for all DoW allowances in all armies. As you say its "sadly not in an article I can wave at you" until you can wave at it me I will stick to my guns on the issue. I would love you to wave it at me as then my VC could then deploy my favourite DoW cannons! As I can't find such an article - I can't and don't.
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Post by mike on Sept 1, 2008 12:09:51 GMT
Two points Warren
Firstly, regarding giants and ogres
I have just purchased the Ogre Kingdoms army book, along with about 2500 point of ogres (including a slavegiant). This includes a rare choice option for a giant, not as a hired mercenary but as a slave of the clan tyrant. This is vertually identical to the standard giant, except that it is no longer stubborn (having been beaten up by the tyrant it is no longer so certain that "little things" can't hurt it).
Technically then, under the rules you have stated, orgres can field a giant.
Actually, this doesn't effect my army list since I will not be using the ogres for the competition - I simply won't be able to paint them in time (what can I say? - I'm from Bedford - it's a cultural thing) - but there's no harm clarifing the point.
Secondly, and of more relevance to me personally - what about other monsters?
Are we allowed other monster choices as long as they are listed in the current army book. For example, could my high elves field a dragon, or would that be considered a little over-powered.
Regards Mike
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Post by Stephen Mawson on Sept 1, 2008 13:28:44 GMT
Under the high elf list the dragon is a mount for a character, not a seporate monster, just like a horse or a chariot. If you have the points to buy one for one of your characters that's fair enough.
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Post by mike on Sept 1, 2008 16:10:28 GMT
Yep, that would be my veiw
Just wondered if Warren had a veiw in mind - after all, he's the competition moderator so he sets the competition rules (and we all know that competition rules are not always the same as core book rules)
Just looking for clarification
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Post by wstevens on Sept 1, 2008 18:12:30 GMT
What Steve said ... and oops overlooked the slave giant. Its in the OK book so its OK with me. The question above originally was DoW based so answers were cultured around that. However, yes Ogres can have a slavegiant.
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Post by mike on Sept 2, 2008 12:16:18 GMT
Thanks for the clarification Warren
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