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Post by wstevens on Nov 6, 2009 20:58:05 GMT
Wow got the book and really don't want to face Skaven at all now. They have the best answer and probably better answer to the VC vampires in the Vermin Lord at 500pts naked - level 4 wiz as well as far superior stats. The great pox rat which is a mount is available for the warlord, plague priest. There are other new things and stuff brought back from days gone by such as the Plague furnace, doomwheel, Plagueclaw catapult and a very nasty regenerarting Hell Pit abomination that rivals any giant or dragon! The whole army can be sufficiently tooled up with magic and warpfire - at a cheap price and be able to negate most magic in the WFB universe now. They have two lores Plague and Ruin from which to choose spells from and all of them are well nasty! If I didn't hate this army so much I would be really tempted to go for them. Skaven - the new Daemons!!!!!!!
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Post by Stephen Mawson on Nov 6, 2009 22:05:32 GMT
Hmm, I've been reading the book, and while I agree there are some things that are a significant improvement, others have been toned down. My overall first impression is that it doesn't change an awful lot in terms of the power level of the army, just adds quite a bit of additional variety.
The most obvious thing is that some of the more oddball rules have gone. No Mainstay rule any more, which makes constructing the army less fiddly and more like the other lists. The magic now works like everyone else's as well, so more more irresistible force on a 13, which was characterful but stupid.
I personally don't like the Vermin lord much, to expensive for what it does, level 4 wizard or not. It's only T5 and only has a 5+ ward, so as a large target I'd expect this to get pin cushioned by bowfire. It's not even that hot in close combat, considering it's cost. If you could stick the thing in a unit of rats and use it as the army general then it'd be fantastic, but as you can't it's just not that good.
The Hell Pit abomination does look nasty, certainly compared to a giant, it's main weakness is the random movement (that and any triples make it go out of control in some way). So you might find that it doesn't actually move very fast, and it's not as controllable as a giant.
The Doomwheel looks reasonable, but is relatively expensive for what it is, and the lightning shots aren't exactly devastating, 3 shots a turn (at artillery dice strength) at the closest unit to the doomwheel (friend or foe), and it is going to be reasonably vulnerable to war machine fire.
The Plagueclaw catapult is ok, but not brilliant. Works like a stone thrower, but large template, but only strength 2 hits, but doesn't allow an armour save. The main plus is that you only have to be touched by the template to be hit by it.
The weapon teams are now quite variable. The 4+ ward if within 3" of their parent unit is nice, although it won't protect them from anything but opportunistic shots.
The new version of the ratling gun is a lot worse (but then since the old one was sick, that's not a bad thing). It uses the same one d6 at a time firing method, but now it's shots not hits which is a big difference. Makes it much less useful for pointing at skirmishers for example.
The warpfire thrower however is much improved as you now only need to touched by the template to be hit by it, its still the most expensive weapon team though.
The new teams are interesting, but not sure how great they will prove to be.
The Doomflayer (Artillery dice str 4 hits in close combat) may be useful, but has to survive to reach the enemy. I can see this potentially helping it's parent unit of clan rats actually win a close combat against something tougher than human infantry, but I'm not sure they will be that useful.
The Poison wind mortar looks more useful, purely as it can move and shoot, it will only wound on a 5+, but doesn't allow an armour save, but has a fairly decent range. I can see one or two of these being a big nuisance to armies with high toughness or high armour save infantry units (Dwarfs for example).
The Warplightning cannon now works much more like a cannon (but still with the artillery dice strength). I think this will be a more reliable weapon now, provided you are decent at guessing ranges, but the artillery dice means it not quite as good as a standard cannon (although it's pretty close).
Clan rats have got fractionally cheaper, which might help you squeeze in a few more models, but doesn't make a huge difference.
Rat Ogres have been improved, and made cheaper too. Not sure if they're now worth taking or not, but a big improvement over the last lot.
The spell list as you say is now two lists. Which spell is the default spell depends on the spell caster. Grey Seers it's skitterleap, Warlock Engineers it's Warp Lightning, Plague Priests it's pestilent breath.
I don't think either list is totally fantastic.
From the first list (Ruin) Skitterleap is essentially unchanged, Warp Lightning only has one casting value now and is only 1d6, so not as powerful as it was. Warpgale as it affects all enemy shooting for a turn will be great against some armies and totally pointless against others. Death Frenzy now does automatically what is used to when cast on an already frenzied unit, so probably still be the best spell on this list. Scorch is a good attacking spell, but has a high casting value Cracks Call sounds good in theory, but between the high casting value, the random range, and the fact that it's a line effect mean that it's of limited use.
The second list is Plague Pestilent Breath is ok, template, but now everything touched by it is hit. Still don't think this is a stunning spell however. Bless with Filth makes a friendly units attacks poisoned for a limited time. This is ok, but only of limited use. Wither reduces the targets toughness by 1 (the text actually says reduces toughness by -1, which technically is a toughness increase). This could be very helpful, and it's permanent, not remains in play, so pretty good. Vermin Tide this spell hasn't changed, but was a good enough spell before. Cloud of Corruption This could potentially be nasty as it effects everything within 12", but has a high casting value, and will effect your own units as well (although not as much) Plague No change for this spell, so not really that good. To high a casting value really, and while it has a chance of affecting more than one unit there is an equal chance it will affect one of yours.
The Thirteenth Spell is just mental. 25+ casting value to turn some one of your enemies units into clan rats. Essentially the only chance of getting this one off is on a double six, although in theory a grey seer with warpstone tokens could get it off, but you'd really need to be using 6 or 7 dice to have a reasonable chance.
If it works however it would be very funny, especially if used on a small unit that contained one or more characters as the whole unit is transformed if it works, no saves or anything allowed.
On the whole I think the Skaven were a nasty army before and they're still a nasty army now, just you've got a few more options which means a good army build is less likely to contain the same small number of good units.
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Post by Liam Thompson on Nov 7, 2009 12:14:48 GMT
Hmm, I've been reading the book, and while I agree there are some things that are a significant improvement, others have been toned down. My overall first impression is that it doesn't change an awful lot in terms of the power level of the army, just adds quite a bit of additional variety. Despite Warren's analysis, I'm glad to see that someone's taken the time to focus on the list as a whole, rather than cherry pick the best bits and start to complain about them. Not trying to have a go at you, Warren, but what you did is basically what the gaming community seems to do as a whole whenever a new book comes out (i.e. point out all the nastiest bits and start complaining, rather than taking the time to analyse things and think of new tactics to combat the new threats). The Plagueclaw catapult is ok, but not brilliant. Works like a stone thrower, but large template, but only strength 2 hits, but doesn't allow an armour save. The main plus is that you only have to be touched by the template to be hit by it. The warpfire thrower however is much improved as you now only need to touched by the template to be hit by it, its still the most expensive weapon team though. Anyone else get the feeling that they're paving the way for next year's rumoured 8th Edition WFB release? Making templates hit everything underneath (rather than 4+ to hit those partially covered) is exactly what they did when they released 5th Ed 40k (as opposed to the 4+ method, which is what happened in 4th Ed 40k). Wither reduces the targets toughness by 1 (the text actually says reduces toughness by -1, which technically is a toughness increase). Meh. Nothing new here. GW has always used that phrase ("reduce X by -1") to indicate a reduction, despite the fact that mathematically it increases it.
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Post by wstevens on Nov 7, 2009 13:38:46 GMT
If that what passes an analysis in your book then I see that you are easily pleased under such a description. As you are aware this pails into significance as an analysis for which I have not the time or energy to do. I am glad that Stephen does and did.
Just a passing comment on a few things and still keeping in mind the intellectual property of GW, so it's not bandered about. I was very careful NOT to go the full hog on this.
I cannot agree that if you compare this army list to the last one that there is not much difference at all. There are so many extra units to choose from and there are a lot more beneficial upgrades. If one were saying that this has made no difference to the skaven army as a whole - I really beg to differ. Its more powerful and gives so many different options. Noted that a number of the old rare units have now been relegated to special units to path the way for nasties. Please also note that these relegated units have not been tampered with stats wise. So effectively they are still rare units in my eyes (Plague monks and censor bearers).
The only thing I can say is that the so called new nasties do cost hefty points and it is that which may stay their appearance on the battlefield. It will be interesting to play against but I won't hold out for diseplling much against this lot - way too much magic and the ability to generate more... even more than the Dark Elves.
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Post by Liam Thompson on Nov 7, 2009 15:36:45 GMT
If that what passes an analysis in your book then I see that you are easily pleased under such a description. As you are aware this pails into significance as an analysis for which I have not the time or energy to do. I am glad that Stephen does and did. An analysis is an analysis, regardless of its length and I would not deny calling it such for such a reason. My only real issue is a perceived bias against this new book, which I see on almost every forum I look at on the internet (with respect to new books in general, not just this one specifically), and I just tried to point out that knee-jerk reactions don't always take everything into account. Just a passing comment on a few things and still keeping in mind the intellectual property of GW, so it's not bandered about. I was very careful NOT to go the full hog on this. And this is fully correct and should be emulated by all club members using this forum. GW can, and has, cracked down on internet forums in the past for publishing large amounts of their copyright and we should not try to push this boundary. Good show However, referencing the occasional stat, particularly to make a comparative point or in a rules discussion, is allowable. What Stephen has done is okay as long as people don't see it and start thinking they can copy full unit entries out of their books (particularly points costs). I cannot agree that if you compare this army list to the last one that there is not much difference at all. There are so many extra units to choose from and there are a lot more beneficial upgrades. If one were saying that this has made no difference to the skaven army as a whole - I really beg to differ. Its more powerful and gives so many different options. The true test of this will be in a year or so. By then the army list will have been thoroughly dissected and the chaff removed. If, at that time, there are a significant amount of decent army builds then I would agree with you. However, GW's trend seems to be for one or two units to stand head and shoulders above the rest and once people realise this they will spam those units and ignore the others, leading to the situation Stephen was describing with the previous incarnation of the Skaven army book. If the army list really is powerful as a whole, we won't know for a while, yet. Noted that a number of the old rare units have now been relegated to special units to path the way for nasties. Please also note that these relegated units have not been tampered with stats wise. So effectively they are still rare units in my eyes (Plague monks and censor bearers). That is always something to be wary of, but it could also be the case that they didn't deserve to be there in the first place. I'm not suggesting this is necessarily the case but GW aren't perfect and don't always get everything right (whether with respect to making the old Rares Special or realising that the old Rares shouldn't have been Rare I leave up to the reader to decide). I'm sure Stephen could tell you of his experiences with the older army book better than I.
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Post by Stephen Mawson on Nov 7, 2009 17:21:54 GMT
In terms of new units there are actually only 4 new units that weren't in the last book, three of which are rare choices, the Abomination, the Doomwheel and the Plague Claw, the fourth is the Vermin Lord.
The old Skaven list only had two rare choices, the Plague Censors and the Warplightning Cannon.
Plague Censors have moved from Rare to Special, which is good, purely as they weren't worth taking as a rare choice before, to expensive for what they did. The Warplightning cannon was always so much better for it's points. Plus you had to have plague monks to take them before, and they had to stay within 3" of the Monks.
The new ones are a point cheaper, which makes them just a bit more attractive, so you might now actually see some people using them, and they're not tied to the plague monks any more which makes them more flexible.
Plague Monks were always Special, and to be honest weren't that great a unit anyway. They're a bit better now as the two hand weapons now come as standard, so their is a slight cost saving there. But the main bonus now is if you want to take a Plague Furnace, which makes the unit a lot harder, but admittedly very expensive. They're still vulnerable to being shot at as they have no save, and since the unbranner has gone as a magic item you have no way of protecting them from missile file.
Poison Wind Globiadiers have actually moved from core to special, which might mean people take them less often. Although the fact you can attach a poison wind mortar to them might make people take them anyway.
I'm failing to see why you think this list is more magically heavy than the last one. I don't think it is. OK the Warlock Engineers can now be level 2 wizards, but since everyone always took them with all the upgrades before they were essentially a level 2 with only one spell. But they now cost more points than they did before and don't come with the free warp stone token anymore.
The Plague Priest is even more expensive, and can only take from the Plague spell list which I think is a little less useful than the Ruin list.
The Grey Seer has more variety on spells now, but is otherwise much the same as before.
In terms of magic items, Storm Daemon is gone, and indeed other than two one shot bound spells the Skaven army has no bound spells at all now. Indeed the magic item list is much less good than it was. There were a number of very useful items in the old book, all of which are now gone. Other than the Warp-Energy Condenser I can't think of one I would automatically want to take in the army.
The Dark Elf list can be more powerful magically than this, so can the High Elves and the Daemons, and don't even get me started on Vampire Counts who's magic is the most bent of any army.
I seriously don't think this Skaven army is that much more powerful than the old one. The Seer and triple warlock, plus multiple ratling guns, lots of Jezails and double Warp lightning Cannon army was horrible. Lots of high damage magic, lots of high damage shooting, much of which doesn't need to roll to hit, plus plenty of infantry units.
You can still do that with this book, but it won't do it as effectively. The jezzails are less flexible now (as they're not skirmishers anymore). The Ratling guns are less powerful. The spells are not now so much about direct damage. Plus there are some other units that can now push you much further towards a more close combat oriented force.
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Post by wstevens on Nov 7, 2009 22:06:09 GMT
Vampire counts bent on magic? I would agree on one part and that's the spamming of dice for a 3+ cast. However, the rest depends on individual character builds. Give a vampire lots of magic vampire traits and this will leave him not much to defend himself. This does make him a glorified necromancer that can fight (a bit) but will have little defence.
As Liam says although not directly - proof is in the pudding - let's wait and see you cane my VC three times on the trot and then we will discuss.
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