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Post by Davinder on Jul 15, 2010 14:10:15 GMT
i brilliant idea, definitely count me in, although i can see what Stephen Mawson is saying and have to agree, i think club finances should be used on club activates. but if a separate account could be set up were members could make voluntary contributions of however much they like whenever they can, over the next 5 years i think we should easily be able to raise the necessary amount. also Simon Robinson has a good point i think. - one payment in 2015 once we have raised the necessary amount, at least this will stop us getting caught off guard by anything unexpected.
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Post by carl on Jul 15, 2010 16:11:47 GMT
the point is that its supposed to be a club thing and really £2.50 is nothing when you consider its pence per person per week.
the costs cannot change as they are set in stone and as a charity i'm sure they'r bound by some rules of ethics about this.
we could save the cash or we could keep the cash in the bank and pay once per annum, which i think is the best option as if we have to drop out then at least we will have contributed in some way.
the other option is if the club as a whole votes against it then those who do want to do it can form a small alliance of their own, pay a small amount each week and then call the group something else and just those people go on the scroll of honour.
however, those people will be given first dibs on going to Belgium to man the gaming table if this comes off, only fair if they are contributing and others are not.
personally, i dont know what people are frightened of with such a small weekly outlay. i am more worried about the massive losses we cover on the all day saturdays. my money goes into the club the same as everyone elses and is in some small way used to fund these losses. with each saturday costing £60 to hire the venue it would have meant that the people at the last one paying almost £10 each to cover the hire cost but we NEVER ask them to do this.
cant see too much difference myself.
from what steve told me today about how much we have in the bank, and the fact that we could replace ALL the tiles in the club and still have at least twice as much left (or more) as we spent seems to suggest we are quite well covered, coupled with the fact that we take more money each week than we need to cover the hire, this is a no brainer.
but in the best use of democracy, i will stick it over to the club as a whole to vote and we will see what happens, it is the fairest way after all.
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Post by carl on Jul 19, 2010 21:41:11 GMT
please post an answer to the poll before 9th august
thanks
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Post by David B on Jul 20, 2010 18:58:26 GMT
With regards to the poll that you have posted, while a good idea in theory, this is flawed.
1st there have only been 2 options put forward (although 3 forms for 1 answer) either yes or no. In my opinion there should be a third option, which should be allow voluntary donations from individuals as and when. this should be included in the initial poll, rather than a "we do this if they say no" option.
2nd, this poll is accessible only to those who use the forum, there are many members that dont. It would not be fair to those who dont, as they may have good reason not to use the forums.
3rd, your argument that the Saturdays is a loss making ventre whilst a valid point and I think that this should be looked at again for alternatives should not be put forward as a reason to pump this amount of club funds into a charity. The Saturday events are open to all club members, if they decidde to take part, wheras this event would only cater to those historical gamers. Steve is right in saying that the club funds are there to support the club in its activities and not to support charities.
If we were to take part, the donations should be voluntary on the part of the club members on behalf of the club, and not compulsry for all as a donation from club fund, whist only those members that have donated could have their names on the plaque.
I think as long as this is monitored voluntary donation should easily make the required amount with top-ups from other fund raising events, eg raffles, especially with the level of interest this has gotten.
We could save up the club funds, then in the future we could run another event like From the Ashes as I was under the impression we wanted to do something similar again.
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Post by carl on Jul 21, 2010 16:31:10 GMT
Daiv; whilst i see your point your post is also flawed, i will answer in turn;
1. if individuals want to sign up they can, thats why there's a link to the site. the poll is simply to do with a club based sign up so its the club name on the roll of honour, not an individual.
2. putting the poll here was DELIBERATE, i said at the meeting it would be going up and really everyone should sign up the forum so they know whats going on at the club as this is where 99% of the club news is now posted. however, once the poll is closed i will ask those who did not vote to tell me what there vote wold be. only those people who are NOT signed up will be asked so that someone does not get two votes, so if you are signed up and dont vote then you simply lose your vote as i wont know who has voted and who has not.
3. the money lost on saturdays has no bearing on whether we do this and you have it completely wrong. i NEVER said lets save the money and pump it into this instead, i simply said that the fact certain people were worried about pumping £2.50 into this were then fine in the club losing £36 on a staurday meeting simply because they attend said meeting. also, dont forget ALL club members put money into the club funds which is why they all get a chance to vote yes or no (it's called democracy) rather than someone making a ruling that simply isn't right, but not all of us attend saturdays when the club loses money but the loss comes out of all the money everyone puts in, so in effect those who can never attend on a saturday are subsidising those who do even when the day loses more than half the cost. this loss is simply bad economics. perhaps there should be a poll on whether the members want their money wasted on loss making days such as these. alternatively, if you attend a saturday to play and there are only 10 including yourself you simply pay £6 each, or £10 each if you are one of only 6 people. you cant have it all one way and none the other i'm afraid. if you want the club to keep subsidising losses on saturdays, please dont whinge about £2.50 a week to a charity, especially given our current favourable fund situation.
also, this does not only cater for historical gamers, it actually has NOTHING to do with gaming periods and has to do with supporting a charity that wants to honour those who fought on our behalf to defend us and the country and ensured that we kept this country under English rule, rather than French at that time. the fact you cant see this is staggering, or is it simply because i put the idea forward? as whenever i do put anything forward, it's always the same two people who gripe about it, whatever it is. perhaps YOU can look into valid and profitable alternatives to the saturday situation.
i could after all say that my money is being used as a 'charitable' donation to cover losses on saturdays, but i dont.
if you dont want the club funds used, simply vote NO, but if the vote comes back as a majority of YES, whichever option of payment is chosen then we should do it. also if more votes are yes than no, we should go with the one with the most YES votes.
as for a 'From the Ashes' event, yes we could do this, and we could pay for it now and STILL have enough money to pay the full £600 out of funds right now, so that really isn't an arguement either.
i put forward the idea for a club event some months ago, but it was never taken up, but please feel free to put an idea together and put it to the club / committee, and then organise said event.
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darkangel1(Darrell)
Gates of Antares
Master of the Ravenwing
The Dark Angels the First Legion the true Angels of Death
Posts: 1,060
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Post by darkangel1(Darrell) on Jul 21, 2010 18:24:15 GMT
ok lets nip this in the bud 1; most members have registered on the forum, before a final desision is reached all those members who have NOT voted on the forum poll should be give a chance to decide how they wish to vote at a meeting after the 9th August on a club night then all those members who have NOT voted would have been given fair chance to air thier views.
2; the issue of the money loss on all day saterdays is a seperate issue while it is not acceptable to waste club money on a loss making venture nobody is to blame directly however i feel the committee myself included should have addressed this issue sooner.
3:donating monies too a charity reguardles of what it is a good thing we are fortunate to be in the position to help a worthy cause and providing the membership agrees we should do so. how we go about donating the money is a more complex issue and involves a number of issues:- A;how do we go about raising the money we wish to donate? B:how do we make sure that the majority of the club members are happy we go about this? C:how do we make it as simple as possible so we do not create any unnessacary bookwork for the club accounts?
All these matters have to be addressed very carefully, and what does the club get out of this donation?
1;the satisfaction that in some small way we have helped save a important piece of british history and the clubs profile has a massive impact on the uk gaming community something i have strove for continualy since i was first elected chairman many years ago and will continue to do so while i am a member of the club.
simply putting it again £2.50 a week from the total weekly dues taken is VERY small with reguards to how much money we do take. We also raise money throughout the year from raffles, events etc.. We will not be able to make everyone happy however i am sure that due to the small amount of money involved most members will come to some benificial decision that will be accectable to the majority
Darrell
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Post by carl on Jul 21, 2010 18:38:49 GMT
well said.
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Post by Stephen Mawson on Jul 21, 2010 19:08:38 GMT
If you seriously want to put this proposal to a proper club vote then we really need to actually ballot the clubs membership on the issue.
Polls on the forum are all very well for judging very roughly the feeling within the club on a subject. But we shouldn't be using it as a serious decision making tool.
Primarily that's because not everyone who is a member of the board is actually a member of the club. We've got 83 board members, which is way more than the actual number of paid up club members.
Personally I'm not sure the poll as it stands is actually that helpful in even judging peoples opinions. Mainly as I'm not sure the options presented are sufficiently clear as to what they imply.
Both option one "YES -we collect £2.50 a week and pay yearly", and option three "Yes - collect £2.50 a week, pay £600 in last year" aren't clear where the £2.50 a week is coming from.
If the £2.50 a week is coming out of the weekly subs, and therefore essentially directly from club funds, then there is no difference between option one and option two "Yes - we just pay lump sum each year from funds". Both simply involve the club itself coughing up around £100 on an annual basis, presumably straight out of the clubs bank account.
However if the intention is to simply "collect" £2.50 a week from the clubs members, that is an entirely different proposition altogether, and puts a very different slant on what is being asked.
With the money coming from club funds, what you are basically asking people to vote on is "do you want every club member to contribute towards the Hougoumont Project for the next 5 and a half years, whether they are in favour of the project or not, or even whether they were a member at the time the decision was taken or not"
If the money is being collected from the membership on a voluntary basis either via individual contributions as and when a member wishes to do so, or via organised club activities, such as Raffles, etc. Then this is a very different question. More along the lines of "Do you want Phoenix Gaming to try and raise money to support the Hougoumont Project via collections and various money raising activities?"
Now I am wholeheartedly against the first, as it would essentially be forcing members to support something that they might not individually be in favour of. Plus it's messy from a club accounts perspective, and has additional issues regarding what happens if the committee or club membership changes, or the Hougoumont project folds for some reason. Strictly I think we'd probably be obliged to re-ask the question at each AGM, in order to verify whether the clubs membership were still in agreement with the original decision.
I am however decidedly in favour of the second. But since this is not clear in the above poll I have actually voted no instead.
If we want people to vote on something, we need to be clear on exactly what they are being asked to decide on.
I think we almost want to ask two linked questions.
Firstly: Does Phoenix Gaming want to support the Hougoumont project? Which requires a straight Yes or No answer. This is a simple choice, with no problems with different versions of yes.
Secondly: If the answer to the first question is Yes then how do we want to go about supporting the project?
It's this second question that would contain the various funding options, so from clubs funds, by voluntary collections and money raising, paid on an Annual Basis or simply in one lump sum in 2015.
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Post by carl on Jul 21, 2010 19:31:27 GMT
personally, i cant see the difference.
as we raise money each year via raffles, and now via tournies, and until last year that money went into club funds without any specific purpose then actually there has already been enough raised over the last five or six years to pay this outright, and most of that was raised by me doing the raffles, with the last two done by warren, and by me sorting out club clothing etc and putting a small mark up in to go into club funds for use as we see fit / on stuff as required.
therefore, perhaps we can simply say that we collect the money each week in lieu of monies raised via raffles and tournies and this then goes to the project.
that is of course if the vote is a YES.
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Post by Stephen Mawson on Jul 21, 2010 19:42:59 GMT
Really? As I can't see how you could see them being the same.
Everyone gets a choice as to whether they buy something from a raffle, or enter a tournament or whatever. Besides which they were all the club attempting to raising money for the clubs own use, which I think every member could get behind.
We started doing that kind of stuff quite a long time ago back when the club had a lot less money and actually needed the raffle proceeds to top up the club accounts. We've been past that point for a few years now, but the raffles have now become a bit of a club tradition, even though the real point of them has passed.
The Hougoumont thing is raising money for someone else's use, which is a totally different proposition, which is why I don't think people should essentially be forced to contribute even if the majority are in favour of such a course.
If you want to put the club raffle money to Hougoumont then I'm fully behind that, the club certainly doesn't need the revenue raised that way.
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Post by carl on Jul 21, 2010 20:02:04 GMT
but as the money will all be in the same account, the issue of whether it is from a raffle ticket or simply the equivalent of one persons subs per week is irrellevant when the end result is the same.
thats why i can see a difference.
also, as members buy the tickets we should still require a vote to allow this money be used for the project, so either way you may get some in favour of donating the raffle and tournie profits and some will not, so there's no difference, merely which avenue the money is derived from
the simple reality is are we voting yes or no for donating or not.
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Post by Stephen Mawson on Jul 21, 2010 20:23:39 GMT
Ah well that's where we differ. If we were going to put the raffle money towards this, then the money shouldn't go into the clubs account, or even into the tin with the rest of the clubs funds. If we are donating money then that money is not for the club any more, it's for Hougoumont, and therefore should be kept totally separate.
The money in the clubs account is for supporting the club, paying for room rent, replacing terrain and covering the cost of club events, etc.
If this was going to be a voluntary collection we would indeed need to have a vote, but more on the grounds of whether the club should be using it's raffle for this purpose, and because someone would have to administer the whole thing.
Besides if it's a simple yes or no, why are there three "Yes" options then. I think you'll probably find that not everyone who is in favour of the club trying to make a contribution to this is necessarily in favour of all the various payment options. I'm certainly not.
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Post by carl on Jul 21, 2010 20:43:15 GMT
the options are there because you either sign up and pay yearly or you just pay one lump sum at the end (this is how the sign up works via their site) and these options were put forward during the meeting at the club, if you remember, and not all by me.
Simon said about collecting it and paying all in one go in 2015, and the collect weekly idea was mine and someone else said simply pay the money out from funds in one lump sum each year.
so, not all my ideas and you cant blame me for all of them, which i feel your comment implies. these came from the membership after the actual idea was pitched. most seem in favour, it is just the way in which we join that seems to be the sticky point.
what are your own plans if the vote is a 'yes'. are you going to abide by it?
i have already said if it was no then that would be the end of it as a club and i may then decide to do an individual thing or join in with a few of those in favour at the club as a collective.
i thought it would be good to show the club has a charitable side to it as well as being known for wargaming, something darrell is extremely keen on promoting. obviously, not all of us share that view, which is a shame. david obviously has some though, after all he gave away some stuff given to our club to Bedford without even checking it was ok, very charitable.
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Post by David B on Jul 21, 2010 21:29:59 GMT
Carl, you have gotten that wrong I did not donate stuff given to the club to Bedford. This was given to me by the store as they had made a mistake, I checked whether the club wanted it and was told no. I then donated it to Bedford as I did not have need of it. so on this point get your facts straight, especially posting this fact on a public forum, I do not like being acused of theft.
Second of all, not all points were put forward on the poll. As I said previously the option of voluntary donations should be put as an option in the first place not as an option if people dont agree to donate from club funds, and I put this forward last week. I have spoken to a couple of people who think that this may be the better option, but are unable to vote that way.
I have nothing against donating to charity as such, but feel this should be down to the individual to choose whether to donate. Not everyone wants to donate to every charity that comes along. If this proposal goes through I have been told that only 15p per week per person goes to charity. Over the period of the donations that equates to over £30 per person, not a small amount.
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Post by Stephen Mawson on Jul 21, 2010 21:33:45 GMT
I'm personally with Simon on the how do we pay front. Which I believe was set up a separate account, collect the money over the 5 years, and then pay in 2015.
I'm more than happy to make a personal contribution, when do I ever not support what the club's doing. My objection is only to the specifics on the "how", not the idea itself per say.
It was you who brought up the whole "yes" or "no" thing. If it's simply a matter of "yes we do this thing, and we'll work out how afterwards", or "no we don't do it" then the vote should reflect that.
Otherwise we're as much voting on the how, as whether we do it at all. At which point things then could then get awkward as it's likely that none of the individual options would get a clear majority of the club choosing it.
So what do we do then, go with the highest vote count, even if that choice has say only a third of the votes. To illustrate that point what happens if say option 1 gets 6 votes and the other three all get 5. Do we go with option 1, even though more than twice as many people didn't vote for it?
I'm not trying to be deliberately awkward here, it's simply that this is a fairly complex matter, in an area which the club hasn't gone before, and I want to be sure that we've handled it carefully and thought things through properly before we proceed (assuming we do).
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