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Post by zedeyejoe on Jun 8, 2012 19:17:20 GMT
Running it through army builder, the same list came out as 1602 points (counting the cavalry as paying extra for special movement rules). Under the BtGG list the infantry archers don't pay for the armour, which I have done for the AoA2 list. It does not say that they should have to have light armour (like the spearmen) but it seems to be in the 'spirit' of the list. I think the new list is far more vicious than the old one (with the exception of no re-rolls for the cavalry, I hated that rule) but darts are powerful, the Varaginian guard shieldwall moves and they now cause Fear.
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Post by zedeyejoe on Jul 21, 2012 12:21:34 GMT
Any thoughts on stuff people would like me to bring down with me?
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james
Frostgrave
Posts: 1,221
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Post by james on Aug 4, 2012 7:09:28 GMT
Are leaders killed if the whole front rank is killed or do knew ones spring up?
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Post by Simon Robinson on Aug 5, 2012 22:00:42 GMT
Leaders, Standard Bearer and Musician are always the last three models killed in a unit.
So even if their models are in the front row - you've killed one of the riff-raff
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Post by wstevens on Aug 6, 2012 1:45:49 GMT
So we are not allowed to nominate attacks anymore? I know you don't for Std bearer and musician but for the leader I always thought you could nominate a hit. If not then he shouldn't be allowed to take a challenge.
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Post by Simon Robinson on Aug 6, 2012 8:31:50 GMT
See page 73 of the rule book which says that you can remove rank and file before LSMs
Only Characters can issue / accept challenges - the unit leader is not a character.
So no problem the Leader is NOT killed but cannot attack back at all if a rank and file model has been substituted as a casualty for them. And since they are not a character cannot issue / accept challenges.
As an aside it’s worth noting that when you issue a challenge any Character in the opposing unit may be used to accept. So you may want you King to fight his Duke, but he’s perfectly at liberty to send in another character such as a sub-commander.
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Post by wstevens on Aug 6, 2012 13:12:29 GMT
So lets say my unit charges into your unit. We both have five in the front including the full command. My champion / leader nominates to hit your leader and kills him. Your "dead" leader cannot attack back but another one of your unit minions suddenly becomes the leader and can now nominate to hit my leader with two attacks. That sounds a bit odd. I would expect the leader to be dead "for this round" and another minion to get instant promotion in the next round. This is exactly the same as the std bearer and musician scenario. Therefore if the current leader is dead for the round that I charged then no other model in the unit can instantly take his place and gain two more attacks for this round only.
Remember this is a nomination to hit a particular model and not a challenge.
However it seems that that rules as I see are advocating a type of "look out sir!" rule as a minion pushes the leader out of the way and takes a sword/ axe strike in the belly for his beloved cappo - so that the leader can still have his two attacks back. Hence there is no point in nominating attacks on a unit leader but its ok to do so against a character, who doesn't actually get the priveledge of a "look out sir!" from one of his underlings.
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Post by zedeyejoe on Aug 6, 2012 16:34:33 GMT
I don't think WAB2 does 'nominations'. I don't remember a time when you could do them.
As has been said, covered on p73. Kill the front rank and none of those figures will get to fight but they are not removed until all the normal unit figures are removed,
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Post by Simon Robinson on Aug 6, 2012 18:25:22 GMT
A figure is allowed to target any model it is in contact with (page 52 - which models can fight). This is usually done to allow a rank and file model to avoid having to attack a character it has no chance of killing or to target models armed with different weapons in a mixed weapon unit. So in theory your unit Leader could target the unit leader if they were in contact with them. Page 73 says that the owner of the unit ALWAYS has the choice of whether they remove an ordinary model in place of a command model. It goes on to say that if a model is removed in place of a command model that command model may not fight this turn if it has not already done so so no worries - you can target the commander if you are touching him and if you kill him then he can't fight back this TURN. In fact if you're feeling really nasty you can get 4 models to attack the poor old soul. Now for the tricky part. Because of the fact that you're targeting a specific model what happens to any excess hit? They can't be carried to other models in the unit as you're ignoring them in favour of this one - also what happens in mixed units with different armour / different troop types? The easiest way forward is to say that if you target a specific model you can only kill that model and all excess kills are lost. Since most unit Leaders have only one hit then it's a bit of a waste of effort. As you would waste kills example 3 models including leader attack the enemy unit leader with a total of 4 attacks - 3 hit and all are unsaved, result is 1 kill both in terms of models removed and combat resolution - seems a waste to me as 3 kills would be better result than 1 and making sure the leader could not attack back. Now I could be wrong on this point BUT I can't find anywhere in the rules that says I am - so would be grateful if anybody who does know where it says otherwise would point it out to me- i want the page number and book , errata page or link to the place on the WAB forum where it says otherwise just saying evrybody knows or we've always played it like this is not acceptable. ANY reference to Fantasy will be treated with the contempt it truly deserves. Or if anybody wants to ask the WAB Forum about this I'll happily look at the responses there and take those into consideration As I say happy to be wrong on this but with all the issues with Different weapons and combined formations and different troop types in the same unit / rank (Thegns and fyrd springs to mind) I'm going with the easiest solution for the time being ;D
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Post by davep2 on Aug 6, 2012 20:17:39 GMT
Leaders, Standard Bearer and Musician are always the last three models killed in a unit. So even if their models are in the front row - you've killed one of the riff-raff Simon. This is not always true. See page 105, final point. In a combined formation the command group are the last of their type to be killed.
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Post by Simon Robinson on Aug 6, 2012 21:27:59 GMT
An excellent point - thanks for pointing it out.
Specific rules do over-ride general so in that case you could kill the LSM before the rest of the unit.
The army where this immediately springs to mind is the Saxons with a combined Thegn / Fyrd unit. If the command group are all Thegns (and why wouldn't it be?) then you could kill the last Thegn (and hence the command group) before the last Fyrd in the unit
As I said - always happy to be wrong, it's the way you learn ;D
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Post by zedeyejoe on Aug 7, 2012 7:07:27 GMT
Sorry no, there is nothing that allows you to target command models specifically and never has been.
Hitting characters, yes and that is stated. Combined units with different armour/weapons, thats covered too (p105). Even how to remove casualties on command figures (p73).
But if you start with the false premise that you can target command models, then you build a lovely but imaginary scenario. Or if you prefer, you can target the command figure but an ordinary figure is removed instead. Whichever way you care to look at it, only if non-fighting or rear rank models are removed instead of the command figures, does the commander not get to fight (p73). So you have to wipe out the entire fighting rank to prevent the unit leader from fighting, if he can.
At no point does it say that the unit leader can be picked out to be killed as a specific target and indeed the rules say precisely the opposite (p73). So all covered on p73 and p105 for combined formations. In the old Viking rules, you had the horrible situation where the Viking player could choose what figures they lost, regardless of what was fighting where. So some Viking players had rear ranks with sword/shield that they removed as casualties with more expensive (in points) figures actually doing the fighting. Pure gamemanship of course.
Feel free to ask the question on the WABlist if you would like.
"It goes on to say that if a model is removed in place of a command model that command model may not fight this turn if it has not already done so"
And I suggest you re-check what it does actually say and then come back.
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Post by Simon Robinson on Aug 7, 2012 8:50:46 GMT
Extract from Page 73 of the rule book
"When it comes to removing casualties from a unit, it is usual to remove ordinary rank-and-file troopers rather than command models, leaving commanders until last. This is purely to preserve the appearance and honour of the Unit — the player suffering the casualties always has the choice of whether he removes an ordinary trooper in place of a commander. Where a trooper from a rear rank or other non-fighting position is removed in preference to a command model, that command model may not fight if he has not done so already. So, if a unit with a frontage of five models suffers five casualties from a charging enemy it is acceptable to remove five rank-and-file models leaving the three commanders in place at the front of the unit, but none of them will be able to fight that turn.
Once all ordinary troopers are dead, it is usual to remove the musician first, then the standard and finally the unit’s leader — as seems only fitting — but once again this is up to the player removing casualties.”
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Post by Simon Robinson on Aug 7, 2012 10:22:02 GMT
Having done some more research and asked a few people - including Martin G: the answer is:-
You can target specific models to allow for different weapons / characters etc. You cannot specifically target the unit leader. The only way to kill him, temporarily or otherwise, is effectively to kill every rank and file model in the rank or file he is in.
So if a rank consists of 6 models (4 riff-raff, 1 leader and 1 character) and you kill 5 riff-raff then the Character can fight back but the riff-raff can’t. The next round of combat the Leader is back (if the owner did not specifically take him as a casualty).
Kill only 4 riff-raff and the Leader was the one that you missed so has 2 attacks back.
This, I hope, clears up the issue.
To anybody offended by the tone of my previous posts – I apologise as offence was not my intention.
Personally I like the “lively” debate as it means we all get to air our views and get to learn obscure rules or that “things thought we knew but…” and I’m always happy to be wrong as it provides the chance to learn.
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Post by zedeyejoe on Aug 7, 2012 16:13:12 GMT
The targeting specific models comes from the Different Weapon rule in Armies of Antiquity p5. It is not a general rule and should not be used generally. Normally units made up of differently armed models will use the Combined Unit rules. I must agree on working out how to play the game. If you let your opponent say, this is the way the game works, then expect to lose, unless they; a) know the rules and b) are very nice people. Anyone who says a rule is so, should be able to justify it with a page reference and show you where it is - my copy of WAB2 is highlighted with several key passages for example. Sorry I did not quote the exact rule myself, doing a lot of running around at this end. But remember you can also play WAB anyway you like it, just so long as the players agree. I don't do it that way as no one plays WAB locally anymore, so I have to stick to the standard rules so I don't get confused with house rules in different places. But you can also get the standard rules changed. I got Martin to change the rules for the Galatian army after he saw how the official version worked at the WAB GT. The battle reports are here 3vwargames.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/warhammer-ancients-grand-tournament.htmlBasically, the rules for the Galatians were changed after each game (by Martin) until we got an army that worked a lot more like its historical counter-part. Then it was errataed. And that was one of the reasons I took it to the GT, otherwise it would have been far too good and ended up being used like the Samurai and Trojans were in the first version of WAB.
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