james
Frostgrave
Posts: 1,221
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Post by james on Mar 11, 2012 16:30:08 GMT
Ok so no heavy armour or Javs for legionaries in the new A of A book fair enough but their is no javs for auxilaries either so how do I feel my javelin and sling armed marines that I love so much! Plus it is increasingly thought that legionaries used slings so why no option? Plus no testudo and more stringent limits on scorpions- the new AofA book therefore has removed about 3 of favourite units! Boo...
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Post by Simon Robinson on Mar 11, 2012 16:42:07 GMT
I feel your pain - after all my Hird can no longer sit there T4 throwing their pointy sticks at you being unbreakable. No T4, no Javelins anymore and more Godi making a unit unbreakable.
On top of that I've lost the Ulfhednar - a bunch of fanatics charging round the battlefield causing fun, sorry Chaos I meant chaos
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Post by wstevens on Mar 11, 2012 18:47:48 GMT
so how do I feel my javelin and sling armed marines that I love so much! Suit you sir! ;D
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james
Frostgrave
Posts: 1,221
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Post by james on Mar 11, 2012 19:00:57 GMT
Ah yes field not feel ... feeling marines sounds a some what girlier occupation.
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Post by zedeyejoe on Mar 11, 2012 22:25:48 GMT
The idea that Roman legionaries could use slings seems a strange one. Seems difficult to use a sling in quite close formation, carrying a rather large shield and in armour. But happy to read anything that might explain why this should be so.
Javelins, not a problem. The Romans certainly had a variety of spears, so if one of those gets classified as a javelin instead of pila, no problem. Because the previous list covered such a wide time span, the lists allowed early legionaries to use this lighter spear, that should have been a no no (the lighter spears were used later on, when the enemy tended not to be on foot) and is now allowed in the middle Imperial period.
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james
Frostgrave
Posts: 1,221
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Post by james on Mar 12, 2012 20:09:29 GMT
Evidence for slings is mainly linked to their use by roman marines and in Roman defences. However large number of archaelogical finds of slingshot as well as the slings themselves in Roman stores had led to the suggestion legionaries carried slings as an auxillary weapon - obviously not used in close order - especially as led shot stamped with mark of the legions has also been found.
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Post by zedeyejoe on Mar 13, 2012 13:38:56 GMT
Yes perfectly happy for marines to use slings (apparently one of the things that qualified you as a marine was the ability to throw a javelin whilst sitting down).
Still no evidence for legionaries to use the weapon in the field. So happy that it is not included.
I would imagine that they kept all sorts of supplies in their bases.
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Post by tiger1 (Paul) on Apr 11, 2012 17:12:58 GMT
Sorry guys what is even worse is that my picts no longer carry pikes and never had drilled status which clearly they should have had. Oh and they are more expensive All in all the new AoA makes WAb more "historical" so happy to take the pain, albiet I have asked for Picts to be allowed pikes in the errata, clearly early precurors to the Scottish army of Flodden.
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Post by zedeyejoe on Apr 11, 2012 21:11:55 GMT
Ah but use the old (Shieldwall) lists and the Picts become super troops. Obviously they would have out-Macedoned the Macedonians!
I still remember the day when my 9 figure unit of Pict javelinmen were charged by Goth light cavalry, the Goths failed to get a hit, the Picts broke the Goths, hit the Goth general in the flank, broke him, ran him down and broke half the Goth army. My heroes.
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james
Frostgrave
Posts: 1,221
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Post by james on Apr 12, 2012 7:31:28 GMT
Ok being a geek I was flicking through this book The Roman frontier in central Jordan: final report on the Limes ..., Volume 2 and came across more evidence for slings at the Roman Legionary Fort of El Lejjun where finds show legionaries were issued slings - Again I assume this for defensive duties and for fighting in open order rather in closed order. I dont think they need slings in WAB 2 either but I may be buying some of Warlords sling armed legionaries to deploy as skirmishers as I think it is likely that Legioaries may have deployed as slingers (suitably unencumbered by the scutum) when needed.
I still want marines back - I liked these troops and have a large unit!
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Post by tiger1 (Paul) on Apr 12, 2012 17:00:47 GMT
You could use your Marines as close order auxilliaries just to be different. My Picts are more than happy to play against them. ;D
Do they get bonuses in water??
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Post by zedeyejoe on Apr 12, 2012 20:51:12 GMT
But also an absence of stuff like swords, helmets, body armour and shields, so perhaps nothing to do with legionaries at all - or certainly not the Early Imperial Roman legionary. Ok being a geek I was flicking through this book The Roman frontier in central Jordan: final report on the Limes ..., Volume 2 and came across more evidence for slings at the Roman Legionary Fort of El Lejjun where finds show legionaries were issued slings
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Post by Simon Robinson on Apr 13, 2012 9:42:39 GMT
I would be suprised if they were not issued with slings.
It's a cheap & handy weapon, takes up almost no space / weight (stones are a different matter).
If you're besieged then you have a useful ability to deter enemy attacks.
If you're "in the field" it provides your troops with an easy way to supplement rations with fresh meat
It provides another "drill" / training session for troops that are in barracks - stops them lounging around when they could be doing something useful
It adds flexibility to your army generally.
Does all this mean I think that a maniple would stand there and fire slings at an approaching enemy - no.
But it does mean that a mainple / centuary might be deployed as a skirmish screen if appropriate - probably not in armour as that could restrict their ability to act as skirmishers. And you probably wouldn't want your better close comabt fighters deployed as a skirmisher.
BUT recruits or less experienced Legionaires might be assigned a skirmish role until they were better trained or it might be assigned as a punishment.
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james
Frostgrave
Posts: 1,221
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Post by james on Apr 13, 2012 9:44:22 GMT
Agreed.
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Post by Simon Robinson on Apr 13, 2012 9:53:50 GMT
From The Military Institutions of the Romans (De Re Militari) By Flavius Vegetius Renatus "THE SLING Recruits are to be taught the art of throwing stones both with the hand and sling. The inhabitants of the Balearic Islands are said to have been the inventors of slings, and to have managed them with surprising dexterity, owing to the manner of bringing up their children. The children were not allowed to have their food by their mothers till they had first struck it with their sling. Soldiers, notwithstanding their defensive armor, are often more annoyed by the round stones from the sling than by all the arrows of the enemy. Stones kill without mangling the body, and the contusion is mortal without loss of blood. It is universally known the ancients employed slingers in all their engagements. There is the greater reason for instructing all troops, without exception, in this exercise, as the sling cannot be reckoned any incumbrance, and often is of the greatest service, especially when they are obliged to engage in stony places, to defend a mountain or an eminence, or to repulse an enemy at the attack of a castle or city." I looked this up after my previous reply - for some reason I feel slightly pleased that my guess is supported by Vegetius. link to complete pdf: www.housemanticore.com/images/stories/wiki/documents/de_re_militari_long.pdfenjoy
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